Monk UBAB seems exploitable

[Saeryical]

After testing some classes, I realized monk can be used as a class dip because of the UBAB and wisdom bonus. A full fighter class that use any type of monk weapons putting one level in monk can get four APR( Six APR if dual-wielding) at level 10 while a rogue can get 3 APR at the same level. Not only that but the iterative between the APR is reduced to 3 instead of 5 and they can also dual wield the weapons. This seem especially worst for a rogue that dipped a monk class as they also have sneak attacks and they have finesse training that convert their damage from dexterity. At level 12, they can technically have five APR with sneak attacks with the dual-wielding feats.

In short, it seems too unbalanced for this PW. Can this issue be address?

After some more testing, I find that fighter would still be fine with some monk level and vice versa but rogue is still too unbalanced.

The easiest suggestion would be to make the class requirement for rogue to be non-lawful.

The other more complicated suggestions would be to make that some feats cancelled another. For example: finesse training would cancel the UBAB and Uncanny dodge would cancel the Wisdom bonus, vice versa depends on which class level they have higher. If the monk has the higher level, they keep the UBAB and wisdom bonus. If the rogue has the higher level, they keep the finesse training and uncanny dodge. If both are at the same level, they don't get any of the feats.

 

[mourningstar]

Feel free to dip. You'll discover that in Pathfinder dipping can be catastrophic to your character because of how good later level class abilities are. Keep in mind that a monk's flurry of blows should only work on monk weapons (which are all kind of ass) or with unarmed strikes.

 

[Saeryical]

Feel free to dip. You'll discover that in Pathfinder dipping can be catastrophic to your character because of how good later level class abilities are. Keep in mind that a monk's flurry of blows should only work on monk weapons (which are all kind of ass) or with unarmed strikes.

One of the issues is that due to it having an APR progression of original NWN unarmed, a dual wielding rogue would gain at least five APR with iterative attacks of 3.

15, 12, 9, 15, 12 AB has better hit rate and more chances to hit than 15, 10, 15, 10, AB.

Not to mention that a monk dipping in 1 rogue level is not the same as the rogue only need dip 1 level in Monk to get everything they need which are the UBAB progression and Wisdom bonus.

In terms of UBAB, a level 11 with 1 monk level rogue dual wielding level daggers has 1d4 with 2 enhancement damage plus 1d6 elemental damage + 8 physical( 22 dex with plus 4 cat's grace) damage from finesse training along with 5d6 sneak attacks with debilitating injuries that can hit 5 times in a round is too OP. Not too mention there would be keen property, massive critical damage of 1d6 and improved critical on level 12 daggers which would make them have 15-20 critical range. Even with only Keen, it would be at 17-20 critical range.

In terms of wisdom bonus, the same rogue could gain up to (16 base wisdom with an owl wisdom makes up to 20 wisdom) 5 AC which also count towards touch attack and flatfooted. a level 8 rogue receive uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge in which the former makes their dexterity AC usable even in flatfooted and the latter makes them unable to be flanked unless the flankers have four level more. This make a clothed rogue get more AC than a regular leather wearing rogue as they would have at least 8 ac from dexterity and 5 from wisdom not to mention 4 more AC from magic armour potion. Leather wearing rogue could only have at most 9 from a padded armour.

And all of these are just dipping in 1 level on monk.

Although duel wielding has the downside of reduced AB , with all the dual wielding feats, it can be reduced at most -2 but with sneak attacks from stealth and debilitating injury of bewildered, they can reduce the AC of their enemy by 4 which makes up for this. With five APR, you're bound to get at least one hit with a pretty high chances. If any of that didn't hit, then they can just HIPS and try again since they get that feat from level 10 advance rogue talent.

It's also the reason why most PW servers banned monk from multiclassing or make various restrictions on it.